ATW - Time with Donna Rowe

Season #2 July 10, 2024

Summary

In this episode of After the Well, Melissa Lapin and Donna Rowe discuss their personal experiences with spirituality and encountering God. Donna shares her journey of growing up in a family without a strong religious background and her search for a deeper connection with God. She recounts a pivotal moment at the age of 17 when she felt a profound encounter with God, which brought her peace and a sense of purpose. They also discuss the importance of personal experiences with God and the need for individual exploration and understanding of spirituality. Donna Rowe shares her experiences with cults and the challenges she faced in finding a supportive community after leaving. She discusses the importance of feeling understood and validated, and the difficulties of navigating religious structures and expectations. Donna emphasizes the need for personal growth and transformation, and the journey of rethinking and redefining one's relationship with God. She explores the concept of righteous consciousness and the work of the cross, and the freedom that comes from letting go of religious rules and striving. Donna also mentions her exploration of Trinitarian theology and the hope she has for a new way of experiencing God. In this conversation, Donna Rowe and Melissa Lapin discuss the importance of listening to the Holy Spirit and following His guidance. They emphasize the need to pay attention to where God is leading and what He is teaching in the present moment. They also highlight the significance of studying church history and understanding the early church fathers. The conversation touches on the theme of surrendering to God's quest for knowledge and having a profound relationship with Him. They discuss the freedom that comes from letting go of striving and the fear-based beliefs that have been perpetuated in the church. The conversation concludes with the importance of discerning the spirit behind the messages we hear and seeking a community that fosters safe exploration and growth.

Takeaways

-Personal encounters with God can bring peace and a sense of purpose
-It is important to explore and understand spirituality on an individual level
-Having a community of like-minded individuals can provide support and understanding
-Religious upbringing and traditions may not always align with personal experiences of encountering God Finding a supportive community after leaving a cult can be challenging, as many people may not understand or validate your experiences.
-Navigating religious structures and expectations can be difficult, and it's important to find a community where you can be open and honest about your journey.
-Personal growth and transformation are essential in redefining your relationship with God and letting go of religious rules and striving.
-Exploring different theological perspectives, such as Trinitarianism, can lead to a deeper understanding of God and a more authentic faith experience.
-There is hope for a new way of experiencing God and a restructuring of religious systems that may be polarizing and restrictive. Pay attention to where God is leading and what He is teaching in the present moment.
-Study church history and understand the early church fathers.
-Let go of striving and fear-based beliefs in order to experience freedom in Christ.
-Discern the spirit behind the messages we hear and seek a community that fosters safe exploration and growth.

Episode Transcript

Scott Lapin (00:08.452)
Hi everybody, welcome to this episode of After the Well. Today I have my friend Donna Rowe on here with me and she is a friend, I don't know, acquaintance, friends, I don't know, we've not spent a whole lot of time together so I'm really looking forward to this conversation that we're gonna have today. We both belong to a group for women called Kingdom Leadership Matrix and that's how we met, was just in an online group for women. And so.

Yeah, let's just go from here. Hi Donna. Welcome.

Donna Rowe (00:40.746)
Hi, thanks for having me today. I'm doing great. I had a wonderful birthday celebration yesterday. It just seems to be, let's see, I'm 66 now. Yeah, right? That's true. It doesn't really matter if it's like lower or higher now, but it's, yeah, thank you, thank you. It's, there's been this like

Scott Lapin (00:43.436)
Yeah. How are you doing today?

Scott Lapin (00:50.325)
Oh, how fun, how old are you?

Scott Lapin (00:54.84)
Just think about it. You know you're old when you have to think about how old you are. Well, happy birthday!

Scott Lapin (01:09.628)
Mm-hmm.

Donna Rowe (01:10.326)
You know, and sometimes you think, oh, what do I want to do on my birthday this year? You know, but I just thought, you know, I'm just going to let go and let it happen. And I, I really actually gave to myself a lot this week. I gave myself so many different gifts. Uh, yeah, I gave myself a, uh, a, uh, myofascial release. I gave myself, uh, I did a so-so session, which is an inter-hailing session. And, uh,

Scott Lapin (01:25.084)
Have fun.

Scott Lapin (01:30.994)
Okay.

Scott Lapin (01:35.328)
Okay. Right.

Donna Rowe (01:39.31)
I've done different things with people and I have other things planned through the weekend. So it's just kind of loose. Yeah, it's really, it's really special.

Scott Lapin (01:45.688)
Nice. So that was a good self-care package for you. That was good. Because a lot of people, we don't know how to celebrate ourselves, you know, especially as women.

Donna Rowe (01:52.954)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, just...

Scott Lapin (02:00.6)
we're almost made to feel selfish if we take care of ourselves. Like you're a mom, you can't do that. I'm like, bullshit, so can I. Sure can. You know, and but I've counseled so many women who are just depressed and just point, not pointless, purposeless and aimless. And they're just

Donna Rowe (02:04.234)
right? That's...

Donna Rowe (02:11.519)
Ready?

Scott Lapin (02:28.268)
in a funk because they don't know how to or think that it's okay to focus on themselves. So I'm going to champion you and say way to go for doing that. I take a whole month for my birthday.

Donna Rowe (02:38.814)
All right, thank you. Thank you. That's what I was laughing at. I was like, I know that I was like, dang, how's my birthday week? And some people think, oh, it's my birthday month. I know people have that orientation too, which I think, hey, maybe I'll enlarge that next month or next year.

Scott Lapin (02:51.287)
Ew. Yeah.

Yeah, well, I put it in 2020. Obviously, we all know what happened in 2020. I totally got hosed out of my 50th birthday. Because my 50th birthday, I mean, my birthday is in March, it's the end of March and freaking got shut down with COVID like the end of March. So like no restaurants, no like nobody was coming out everybody. I'm like, this is not fair. It's my 50th birthday, you know, and like I pouted I was

Donna Rowe (03:00.334)
It's great.

Scott Lapin (03:23.556)
mad. I was mad at the world because they hosed my 50th birthday, right? So when I, uh, the next year, when I turned 51, I did a whole entire month. And I did, that was the first time I did it. And I'm like, Hey, I like this. But, um, I did the whole month in 2021, March 1st to March 31st, 30th,

Scott Lapin (03:53.348)
day I got something. Whether it was, and it's not like, today's my birthday, reach out to me. You know, I didn't like advertise and solicit, you know? I did put the Facebook posts that like, this is my birthday month, I will be receiving cards, invitations, coffees, margaritas, whatever the meme was. And I kid you not, God loved on me the whole entire month I got.

Donna Rowe (03:55.825)
Oh, that's wonderful.

Donna Rowe (04:20.098)
Nice.

Scott Lapin (04:20.628)
I got text messages and phone calls from people I hadn't talked to in like a couple years. You know, other than like little Facebook, hey how are you, whatever. But people made an effort to like reach out to me and I know that was God because I just felt so bad for not having a 50th. You know?

Donna Rowe (04:41.582)
I think the best experiences are when you just let go of expectations really and then you just let you know everything just comes in just kind of naturally. That's the best you know because that's the way God works I think you know it's like.

Scott Lapin (04:45.973)
Oh, for sure. That'll preach.

Scott Lapin (04:53.269)
It is.

Well, because he knows our heart and he knows, like we could put something out there. To us, it looks one way because of our perspective, but to God, it looks so much different and so much bigger and so much more extravagant. And it's like, man, I was hoping for like a few dinners, or lunches, breakfast, whatever, but every single day. So that was.

30 encounters with the Father Heart of God toward me that I got in a month, you know? And some days were multiple, you know? And then like on my actual birthday, I go this year was my fourth year. Yeah, because even in 2020, my favorite Greek restaurant, they didn't close. So for my birthday, we went on my birthday and it was just my family, like me, my husband and our two kids.

Donna Rowe (05:28.15)
Nice, nice.

Scott Lapin (05:54.34)
and their boyfriend girlfriends. But the next year, I had like 30 people show up, you know, and I'm like, it was awesome. It was so fun. Because we just take the time to go, okay, God, you know what? Like you said, just let go of expectations. Like, I want 30 days of seeing you manifest in my life. And it happened. It was so amazing.

Donna Rowe (06:23.01)
The expectation is a different type of expectation. I mean, yeah, having like, oh, this must happen versus like, I have an expectation that God's going to show up this whole 30 days of my birthday. I don't know how, but it's going to happen.

Scott Lapin (06:26.701)
Yeah, for sure.

Scott Lapin (06:35.584)
Yeah, well, when they talk about an expectancy versus expectation, I expect God to show up every day, all day. But when I say he has to do it this way, that's when we get hung up, you know.

Donna Rowe (06:44.877)
Right.

Donna Rowe (06:49.066)
Right. Well, I think it's kind of funny just talking about that, like that God expecting him to show up because he's always with us. So we may not just be noticing how he's showing up. Like, it's like.

Scott Lapin (07:05.18)
Right, which is why I use the word manifest. A lot of people, especially a lot of Christians, won't use the word manifest because, you know, it's a new age word or whatever. And I'm like, mm, no. And even if it was, I have the right to take it back for the kingdom. Hello, you know? So seeing God manifest, you know, I know he's here and I know he's in me and I know he, you know, there's no separation in us. But it's like, okay, God, I know

Donna Rowe (07:11.534)
I'm sorry.

Scott Lapin (07:34.208)
you want this for me, I want to see it. You know, that's the expectancy that I have that I'm not afraid to ask God for the big things. I have a podcast. My God, I got something to say. What does that look like? Okay, start a podcast. I'm like, all right, let's do this. So but let's back up a little bit. I think we got

Donna Rowe (07:47.766)
Awesome.

Donna Rowe (07:56.718)
Thank you.

Scott Lapin (07:59.116)
a little carried away with that, which I think is awesome. I think we'll circle back around to all of that. But so the premise for After the Well is us just talking, and I guess we kinda already touched on it, but having our encounters with Jesus, like in our everyday. The woman at the well met Jesus at the well. You know, getting a jug of water. We don't know why she was there, but she was just doing an everyday task.

And there was a moment in their conversation when she acknowledged, okay, you're a prophet. Well, let's have a conversation. And then she started asking him about worship and where do we worship and your people, my people and that kind of thing. So in your life, looking back, where would you say or what would you say one of because I'm sure you've had more than one because we usually have more than one. What would be a good well moment?

that was a pivotal encounter for you. Like when you, could be your conversion story, like I mean, I don't know anything about you really. So I don't know your past and your history. You know, even people who were raised in the church at some point have to have their own well moment because we cannot live our lives on someone else's picture of Jesus.

You know, so what does that make sense? Like when did he become like real and you're like, oh, you're not my grandma's Jesus. You're my Jesus.

Donna Rowe (09:30.858)
Yeah, you know.

Donna Rowe (09:35.57)
Yeah, well, I think maybe I should start with talking a little bit about giving a little bit of background of like my, just my spiritual experience, that I was actually, excuse me, raised in a family without God. Really, my mother was a, had been raised Catholic, went through.

Scott Lapin (09:50.138)
Yeah.

Scott Lapin (09:56.205)
Mm-hmm. Okay.

Donna Rowe (10:03.078)
they called cataclysm and all the things that go along with that. And then my father was a, what's it, Christian science. That's the way he was raised in his household. Did very interesting mix, but they did not share that. Really the only things that they expressed to me was their dissatisfaction with it.

Scott Lapin (10:12.228)
Ooh, okay. That's an interesting mix.

Scott Lapin (10:27.085)
Okay.

Donna Rowe (10:28.63)
dissatisfaction with that religion. Especially, my dad telling me about his experience, because Christian science, they don't believe that, like a lot of them did, and I don't know if it is now, but receiving medical help. There was a time when he needed glasses in school, and he was afraid to ask his parents.

Scott Lapin (10:48.056)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Scott Lapin (10:55.695)
Mom.

Donna Rowe (10:56.866)
for help around that and knowing that he might need glasses or whatever and I thought that was kind of interesting. It's one thing that stuck out. And then my mom was all about, well, she received such a mean treatment from and strict treatment from nuns and things like that. And so I guess they both got kind of wrong pictures or wrong kind of an orientation, not really even orientation, but wrong. They just kind of got turned off to God.

No, that's...

Scott Lapin (11:27.2)
Yeah, it's really bad foundation right there. Just a religious doctrine, really just a doctrine of man. We can't even say those any of those things are from God.

Donna Rowe (11:33.836)
Right.

Donna Rowe (11:37.314)
Yeah, so I mean, I had the I remember going with my grandmother who was a Christian science and then when she would take me along with her to church at times, not very many times. I remember her giving me this like book that had it was must be must have been their little church Bolton thing, but it had she would tell me I guess she told me this to keep me quiet but to circle every time I saw the word God circle it. So, God, God. So anyway.

Scott Lapin (12:01.56)
Okay.

Donna Rowe (12:07.362)
So I'm growing up in this household and had, I will say that in my teens I was very troubled. My childhood that I grew up with was not the best of childhoods. And so I was a real troubadour. I was one of those teenagers who got into a lot of trouble. And.

There was this one night that I had come home from being with my friends and I was feeling very lonely and my mom was on the couch kind of zoned out doing her thing and I came into my bedroom and my big window was open and I could see out to the stars, you know, and I was feeling so low, like it was a very feeling very low, lonely, everything and I was looking out the I was looking out the.

window and I asked I was so miserable and really desperate and I said um for some reason I said is there a god because if there is I really want to know you I really want to know

Scott Lapin (13:18.464)
Interesting. Okay, so what in that?

Scott Lapin (13:27.144)
Is there something that prompted you to be, I mean, yeah, you had religious parents and you went to church and stuff, but.

Scott Lapin (13:43.044)
I'm trying to frame this question because what to ask is there a god I want to know you were there truths that were there things that you heard that you were in were hopeful does that make sense and I don't know if you can answer this question that was just a thought that came to my head because like people do that like if there is a god I want to know him or I want to know you

Donna Rowe (14:10.636)
Right.

Scott Lapin (14:13.76)
So do you remember hearing anything that would prompt you to think that there was? Even in amongst the religious acts and laws and stuff like that.

Donna Rowe (14:26.826)
Yeah, great. You know, well, you know, when I, you know, I was thinking about that and I was thinking, well, not really. And then I was like, no, I did have some experiences. Like I remember, funny with a, I had a babysitter and she was a Jehovah's witness.

Scott Lapin (14:42.756)
Where did you grow up?

Donna Rowe (14:45.15)
I grew up in a lot of different places. We were traveling. I think I've lived in like 15 different towns.

Scott Lapin (14:46.742)
Okay.

Scott Lapin (14:50.272)
Okay, yeah, because that's a lot of a little religious connection right there.

Donna Rowe (14:54.515)
Yeah, it's very interesting. So, but what I remember about this girl who was probably at the time, because I was like maybe.

maybe seven. She had to be around maybe 12, 13 or something. But what I remember about her was her kindness. And she would talk to me about God, but I didn't know what the heck she was saying really, you know, but I just, so maybe I had an association there, God kindness or something. I don't know, but there was like, she knew about God. Yeah, she knew about God, you know, but she was just so, I remember her being so feeling that and so kind in the way that she talked to me and the way that she

Scott Lapin (15:23.214)
Okay, so Holy Spirit planted the seeds. Yeah.

Donna Rowe (15:34.238)
It was just never really had anyone do that with me. And so, and then I'm sure, you know, I've had people throughout my life. Like I felt like those people, like my, like a seventh grade teacher or an eighth grade teach English teacher who prompted me to, um, out of my shell, really. And had me do something I was, that was really scary, but afterwards it wasn't so scary and then she believed in me. You know,

Scott Lapin (15:39.024)
Hmm.

Scott Lapin (16:03.105)
Okay.

Donna Rowe (16:03.37)
So I've had like, it felt like those experiences, like why I wasn't getting at home, I would get at different times in my life, you know? And so maybe that could be that, you know, that sort of a little bit of orientation, I think that God does show up in these, you know, in these different situations really, to provide you with what you need, even if you're maybe not getting it from your family of origin. So anyway, yeah, I also,

Scott Lapin (16:12.06)
Okay.

Scott Lapin (16:21.297)
Sure.

Scott Lapin (16:28.481)
right?

Donna Rowe (16:33.05)
I mean, you're just a very sensitive kid and just picked up on a lot of things. Oh, I do remember here now that I OK, so I remember this is the really weirdest thing. OK, but when I was in third grade, I read this book and I don't know how I got a hold of it. But I always as a little kid read things that were like really mature for my age. And I read this book about this like, what's his name? I think his name was Edgar Casey.

and he was some kind of Edgar Cayce, he was some kind of like prophet, but kind of like a psychic type of person or whatever. But what impressed me about in the book was that he had a photographic memory and he would read the Bible and remember all of it. And I was like, wow. Right? Photographic memory. So anyway, but I thought how strange is a third grade?

Scott Lapin (17:14.651)
Okay.

Scott Lapin (17:23.216)
God, I want some of that.

Scott Lapin (17:28.474)
Yeah.

Donna Rowe (17:31.594)
person to read this book, which I think is pretty adult like material.

Scott Lapin (17:35.704)
Yeah, but I don't know. God was telling you something way back then.

Donna Rowe (17:40.158)
Yeah, just interesting. You know, I was so anyway, that night that I did, I was just feeling so alone. Like I did, I didn't know where to go. Like I just was at my end point or something. I just, I felt, you know, dead inside really. And so when I, when I had said that all of a sudden I hear a voice that says, um, don't worry.

you will do great things. And when I heard that, it was like this settling that happened. I mean, seriously, I felt like this calm come over me and a piece, such a big piece. And then I was like, really? Here I am, like what? I don't know, 17 or something, you know, like I'm thinking, wow, really? So.

Scott Lapin (18:11.989)
Hmm.

Scott Lapin (18:38.)
Yeah, because at 17, man, you got your whole life ahead of you and you're invincible at 17. I mean, like all of us were. We were all invincible. We were rule the world. We can't wait to get out on our own.

Donna Rowe (18:47.926)
Right, right. But so I knew then for me that God existed. And he showed himself to me at that moment. Like, I hurt not only did I, but it was like, I couldn't even like, create that experience myself imagine that experience by myself. I mean, I was very unexpected, you know.

Scott Lapin (19:01.436)
Hmm.

Scott Lapin (19:15.301)
Sure. Were there feelings that went with that? I mean...

Donna Rowe (19:18.954)
Yeah, just like I'm telling you, it was an encompassing love and just everything like that desperate feeling I had. I mean, really, I don't know if you've ever experienced being that, but anyway, depressed, desperate, whatever just left. And what happened was like in the weeks after that, it sort of just stayed with me, not sort of, but stayed with me and everyone who I was involved with, who I would call bad.

Scott Lapin (19:31.16)
Yes. Yeah.

Hmm.

Donna Rowe (19:47.082)
or not such a great influence on me. I just didn't have the desire to go out with them. Like they'd call, my friends would call me up and I'd say, I don't really feel like going out. It just really interesting because like looking back at that experience, like, you know, years later, I thought, oh, isn't that funny? Because I, since then I've had many experiences where that can happen when you have a God or...

spiritual experiences is that it's permanent. Like, like it doesn't like it doesn't like say someone had a bad habit of doing something and all of a sudden, like it was just gone in a second. I mean, it doesn't always happen that way. Right? Or healing doesn't always happen that way. But that did at that time went like that. And I was like, wow, isn't that something how just

Scott Lapin (20:21.026)
sure.

Scott Lapin (20:34.447)
Yeah.

Donna Rowe (20:43.03)
didn't have any desire. You know, it's like someone who's smoking and they can't, they're trying to quit smoking, but they can't. And then it's like, boom, it's just no desire, no desire because it just not. But so, and, and anyway, just, you know, throughout my path, my spiritual mother has not been one of like traditional like, okay, now I believe in God. Now I'm getting, reading my Bible. Now I'm, you know, all that. Not really, not at all.

Scott Lapin (20:48.204)
Great.

Donna Rowe (21:10.142)
And I had many times when I would talk with God, but I never got into like a church. And then I would have all these people, like there was different times people would come into my life and they would sort of counsel me and say, hey, did I believe in God and all that kind of thing. So my walk has been...

not it's kind of the opposite of what a lot of times people experience as Christians you know they get okay I believe it I believe in you I'm accepting Jesus into my heart all of that now I believed in God and Jesus and I actually kind of not kind of I educated myself through the Bible but I never really

Scott Lapin (21:44.75)
right.

Scott Lapin (21:54.628)
So you didn't have community at this time then? You didn't have community that you could ask questions of and anything? Wow, so did you tell anyone though? I mean, did you attempt to like ask? Yeah.

Donna Rowe (21:57.602)
Say it again.

Donna Rowe (22:04.65)
None of that.

Donna Rowe (22:11.598)
them about my experience. I couldn't even explain it to anyone at that time. I did not explain that to anyone. In fact, I thought it was... I don't know, you know when you're 17, I mean you don't really go like, hey I just had this God just talked to me last night, you know, let alone in a household where my mom didn't really... I mean she might have thought it was odd and I had enough, you know, I mean I think that growing up because I had, I feel like these kinds of...

gifting so if I can hear spirit I can see I all that type of thing words of knowledge I didn't even know to put a name to it what it was at the time so you know let's go down all you know past a lot of other experiences that I've had with father getting involved with a church my first church I got involved with was the Catholic Church

Scott Lapin (22:43.9)
Mm-hmm.

Scott Lapin (22:50.671)
Yeah.

Scott Lapin (23:06.496)
Okay, could be worse, but okay.

Donna Rowe (23:10.771)
And then I quickly realized that I was like, I don't experience God here. Like we're singing, we're doing this. The only time I ever felt that we were connected in the body was like when it, because you know, you're talked at a lot in, in Catholicism and they don't really, you know, it's really a lot of stuff goes through the pastor and the priest and all that kind of, there's all this like.

Scott Lapin (23:17.552)
Yeah.

Scott Lapin (23:25.637)
Yeah.

Scott Lapin (23:33.688)
Yeah, yeah, I had somebody along, this was years ago when I first got saved. So in the in the late 80s, I was talking to somebody about going to church or read, I think it was reading your Bible or whatever. And they happen to be Catholic. And she's like, anything I need to know, my priest will tell me. And I'm like, OK, that's Catholicism for you. You know, but what about your personal relationship? You know, and we were I wouldn't like.

Donna Rowe (23:55.895)
Yeah.

Scott Lapin (24:01.02)
I don't know, maybe I was religiously trying to get them re saved. Kind of thing. But it's amazing how many people and I don't think it's denominational specific, but how many people rely on someone else to orchestrate their relationship with the Trinity, you know, reading

well intended self help books and you know the latest john maxwell book or whatever whoever anybody follows or you know latest bill johnson book or you know whatever but don't pick up the scriptures and read it through the lens of jesus you know for myself for ourselves we always are relying on someone else to interpret it or

explain it all to me or I'll just do what they do. You know, it's kind of heartbreaking.

Donna Rowe (25:02.798)
Yeah. I didn't have that experience for very long because I didn't stay at the Catholic Church for very long because I know my heart and I was praying to God for a different experience. So, you know, I even looked at these Catholics that were, they called themselves charismatic Catholics.

Scott Lapin (25:27.228)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Donna Rowe (25:29.534)
I went into a meeting with them and I was like, whoa, they were like holy roller type people hitting the floor. I was like, what? I ran out of the church.

Scott Lapin (25:38.824)
That's funny. There actually are quite a few of spirit-filled Catholics who like the tradition of the Catholic Church, you know, but are spirit-filled and speak in tongues and believe in Holy Spirit. And they, I mean, Mary is an icon, but they don't worship her.

Donna Rowe (25:41.514)
But.

Scott Lapin (26:00.152)
You know, it's it is truly about Jesus. And I just think that's so cool because it's almost to me like. Being a messianic Jew, like you get the cultural heritage of Judaism. But you get Jesus, you know, and have it both so.

Donna Rowe (26:08.341)
Ahem.

Donna Rowe (26:21.274)
Yeah, well, like I said, I had an experiential kind of thing from the very beginning and I came in, I feel like I came in the back door, so to speak into an

Scott Lapin (26:32.753)
Which is good, you didn't have a lot of baggage to unpack with it, you know?

Donna Rowe (26:37.13)
Not to, not really, but I think, you know, there's other things that go along with the way that I was oriented, the way that I came into learning more about Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Because, you know, it is, you know, good to have a, I think, a foundation, you know, and so I kind of was going from group to group and trying to find that didn't know how to and also there was this thing in me that I knew how to.

Scott Lapin (27:00.4)
Sure.

Donna Rowe (27:06.25)
I know the presence of God. And so going into an environment like the God's like, the presence of God is not here. Not that, I mean, it was, but not the way that I wanted to, like I had that profound experience. It was just a knowing, you know. So anyway, I actually after that, and I hesitate with it to tell you in your audience, but I will, but I will. I got through.

Scott Lapin (27:20.785)
Right.

Scott Lapin (27:30.372)
Do it, let's do it.

Donna Rowe (27:35.93)
I was dissatisfied with that with the Catholic Church and everything. And so I was in the seeking mode. And my sister tells me about this like radio show and then I, and she thought I might be interested in it. And there's these people talking about, cause I couldn't understand this aspect of myself that was able to communicate with God, hear God, listen for him. No, you know, it's like.

Scott Lapin (27:56.176)
Mm-hmm.

Scott Lapin (28:01.604)
Well, especially because either one of those two, the, it was Scientology, right? That your father was in.

Donna Rowe (28:10.342)
science no uh what's it called uh the christian science

Scott Lapin (28:14.332)
Christian science, yeah, very religious, very controlling. You got one guy in charge, no one else can think for themselves. And then the Catholic church, the priest is the guy who talks to God and the rest of you just come and listen, you know? And so you did not have examples. You had no mentorship, you had none of that.

Donna Rowe (28:29.89)
Right.

Scott Lapin (28:39.544)
And so I just give you kudos for sticking with it and not thinking that you were losing your mind and got crazy and like shut it down, you know, that you still pursued going, okay, God, you've revealed yourself to me.

Donna Rowe (28:39.586)
Right.

Donna Rowe (28:47.274)
Right. Well.

Scott Lapin (28:55.236)
and now I'm gonna do something with that. And it was just like the woman at the well. She could have just picked up her jar and went back and did whatever she was doing, but no, she dropped her jar, ran back to town and said, hey, come, this guy, he knows some things. You need to meet him. And she became one of his biggest supporters and the first evangelist, and her sons became evangelists and to tell people about Jesus. And so there's a hunger.

when you have had that experience, you know, even if you can't put words to it, which a lot of times we can't. There are things that I've experienced that I don't have words for. I can tell you what happened, but I can't explain it. You know what I'm saying? You know, it's very basic and it's like, I don't know what happened inside my heart when this happened. I can tell you physically what was happening.

Donna Rowe (29:43.886)
Great. Definitely.

Scott Lapin (29:52.288)
You know, I can tell you how I felt, but supernaturally, I ain't got a clue what happened. But I'm going to search and find out, you know, and so church hopping and trying all different kinds of things. I might go for it because. Not that God. All right, listeners, don't hear what I'm not saying. God.

can be found on any path. I'm not saying Buddhism is God, but I'm saying if you are searching and if that's the route that you're taking, God will meet you on that path. Holy Spirit can show up anywhere because we're searching.

Donna Rowe (30:40.319)
Yeah. And I'll say, as I tell you, the next part of this, this journey that I went into for many years.

Donna Rowe (30:49.73)
The reason why I think I got involved with this group was, again, I was telling you that I had these like, I didn't understand these sort of things that I was what I call gifted with or whatever, whatever you want to call them, word of knowledge, all that kind of thing. I never really had a language for it. So I was searching to understand, to understand it about myself. And I got involved with a church that was orientated in the...

Scott Lapin (31:02.212)
or just, yeah.

Uh huh. But if you don't have, you were never taught.

Donna Rowe (31:19.354)
super nuts. They didn't call it supernatural. But more of like I would say, Eastern meets Western religion, like Christianity, what they did is a mixed Christianity with, with sort of Eastern metaphysical kind of things. Which was interesting.

Scott Lapin (31:23.118)
Okay.

Scott Lapin (31:30.315)
Okay.

Scott Lapin (31:42.917)
Okay.

Yeah.

Donna Rowe (31:46.196)
And we studied the gospel, mainly the gospels, a lot.

Scott Lapin (31:50.37)
Okay.

Donna Rowe (31:52.674)
The only thing about it was, and I was with this organization, because they actually, I felt at home, I felt like, oh, I felt at home now because I was understood there was all these other people who were having these kinds of encounters and all these kinds of, you know, and I was like, wow, I feel like people understand me because like in the world, so to speak, you know, people sometimes just look at you really strangely when you're like a, like you're just like you're crazy.

Scott Lapin (32:07.228)
Sure. Family!

Scott Lapin (32:20.631)
Yeah.

Donna Rowe (32:21.006)
when you tell them about there's only I am learning I run very much later in my life not who to tell thing who to Who to discuss things with and who not to like, you know, you get that Yeah, you get a blank stare you get like, okay, but anyway, I was with this group for about 20 over 20

Scott Lapin (32:29.836)
Exactly, especially in the religious community. Yeah.

Scott Lapin (32:40.888)
Okay, you can say the name because I'm curious. I have to know. Yeah, I mean, we've mentioned everybody on here.

Donna Rowe (32:46.022)
Yeah. Okay. It was, yeah. Yeah. It was called spiritual rights foundation. And yeah, yeah. Well, it was a small, it was very small organization. And really, you know, I've come, I had, when I came out of that whole experience, because there was, it was a cult, it really was. But I will tell you that there's Catholic church could be a cult too, you know, telling.

Scott Lapin (32:55.549)
Never heard of it.

Scott Lapin (33:08.079)
Okay.

Scott Lapin (33:14.906)
Yeah?

Donna Rowe (33:16.438)
anything that has control or is trying to control its members, you know, it's a cult. It's a cult, you know, so, but I would say it was very, I didn't realize because when I, when I, there was a lot of dynamics and, you know, a lot of times people think I didn't like to tell people about that I was involved that way because of how, well, how could you do that? A lot of people don't have an understanding, you know, of how that could even happen.

Scott Lapin (33:21.08)
most churches today. Yep.

Scott Lapin (33:43.664)
Judd? Yeah.

Donna Rowe (33:46.666)
You know, but I mean, bottom line, people are always wanting to feel understood. They're wanting to, um, you know, if you haven't had a great, like family upbringing, your family origin, you're looking for, you may feel insecure and you're looking for others to validate you, you know, I mean, people get into

Scott Lapin (33:52.868)
Sure.

Scott Lapin (34:06.12)
Well, that's how cults are, that's how they happen. That's how gangs in the street happen. That's your brotherhood, your sisterhood. Gangs are just really violent and church cults are just really religious in me. It's still a gang, it's still a cult.

Donna Rowe (34:09.898)
Right. Right, exactly.

Donna Rowe (34:21.283)
Right.

So it was quite coming out of that when I finally let go or decided to just leave all of that because I had this community, right? And I had, I mean, do you think about it when you're in a marriage or something for 20 years? Like if you've had a divorce or anything, then it's like, whoa, I have to like, have to kind of work myself out of the entanglement of everything that happened. And like

Scott Lapin (34:51.123)
Sure.

Donna Rowe (34:52.106)
maybe hold on to some things but let go of other things. And there was a whole language even that we used for certain things. And after that I had to, it's like I was, when I came out of that.

Scott Lapin (34:58.625)
Interesting.

Donna Rowe (35:08.922)
I always had a belief in God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, but I never understood because we were always doing this work on ourselves. I believe in growth, transformation, all that kind of stuff that is, we're always growing as human beings. That there was this thing about like always continually, like there's some kind of imperfection as we're always having to work it out. We're always having to, you know, and

Scott Lapin (35:19.353)
Okay.

Scott Lapin (35:33.324)
Yeah, sin consciousness versus righteous consciousness.

Donna Rowe (35:35.238)
Really, I asked myself one day, he said, Why is Jesus not enough? And really, that's the note I left on, why isn't Jesus enough? So, you know, I said, if he came to do what he did, I why isn't he enough? You know? So

Scott Lapin (35:45.766)
Hmm.

Scott Lapin (35:55.06)
That'll break all day long because that's straight kingdom. Either we believe the work of the cross or we don't What do we think we can add to our own quote salvation? You know that Jesus didn't do it's your are you in school of kingdom? Okay, because that's like the premise of School of Kingdom with them Alexander and a lot of us are in it is that

Donna Rowe (36:12.467)
No.

Scott Lapin (36:23.264)
It's righteous consciousness. It is the work of the cross.

was finished or it wasn't. You either believe Jesus or you don't.

This is what scripture said, why are you trying to add works to that? You know, it's like we talked about the Galatians, who's deceiving you? Why are you trying to get circumcised and do all these things again? You know, you either going to believe Jesus or you're not. And after the cross, the righteous consciousness is simply the changing of our mind, repenting, you know, the renewing of our mind daily of, okay, no, this is who I am.

Scott Lapin (37:05.298)
It's like, okay, God, I know you have these things for me. I want to see them. I Would like them manifest Because I believe These things I I'm already righteous. I'm already sanctified. There is not a prayer. I need to pray That is gonna make me any more sanctified in the eyes of God because of the cross

Donna Rowe (37:11.078)
Great.

Scott Lapin (37:28.668)
you know and a lot of people and that's heresy that's heresy to 95 percent of the American church you know

Donna Rowe (37:37.403)
Yeah. Like I said, I haven't had a traditional kind of anyway, you know, and then there was some so after leaving that group and having to like, I had, I had counseling I had, I went through all these different things I was. I at one point was started to connect with this group of women who were.

Scott Lapin (37:46.424)
reprogram. Yeah.

Donna Rowe (37:58.606)
I don't even remember how I, they were Christian women, okay? And I don't even know how I somehow I got involved with them. And I was taking daily walks with them in the area that I lived around the time it was Oakland. I was walking with them. And then I guess they did some, and I was like having fellowship with them. And I'm thinking, this is a good thing because I'm feeling so after leaving this big, this cult, I'm then with these Christian women who are loving on me and everything. But.

I guess they did some research on me.

Donna Rowe (38:34.106)
It was the weirdest thing. And found out that I was involved or had been involved. And they came at me one day. I was walking in and they said, we need to talk with you sister, we need to talk with you. And I'm like, yes. And they're like, we need to, you know, that you've been involved in this. And I can't believe that you've like, you know, like. It was.

I forget even the wording they use but like you have wronged us basically. We opened ourselves to you and you are under you're under this influence or satanic influences and all these different things and they were shooting all of these things at me and I was on the verge of crying and I told them I said stop and I said look it you could have come to me in a different way.

And I do read my Bible and I know that, you know, you do not approach people this way. If they, you feel like they might be under some kind of deception. You don't print out a piece of paper and tell them all these Bible verses that there. And it was like a, it was crazy. I said, I, um, you are being hurtful to me. You could have come to me in kindness and you didn't. And I'm walking the other way right now.

thank you, but no thank you. So I walked there, but I felt extremely hurt because it was like, I had in one hand been in this, you know, this cold and here I am experiencing Christians and I think they're loving, right? They were having some fellowship and then they're, so I was, I'm telling you, Melissa, I was so leery then from then on of being, because I was like, okay, I believe in God, Jesus, Holy Spirit.

Scott Lapin (39:59.868)
Oh, you're pretty cute.

Scott Lapin (40:15.376)
until

Scott Lapin (40:20.476)
Oh yeah, I can imagine.

Donna Rowe (40:27.458)
But what is this? I don't get it. So I'm scared to interact with Christians now. So for the next, I'm not kidding you, maybe five or six years, I was trying to find a church that could, I didn't feel like I could be open and honest. And I had a couple other experiences like that. And I was like,

Scott Lapin (40:32.476)
Sure, sure.

Scott Lapin (40:44.834)
and just a community.

Donna Rowe (40:53.762)
God, I was under, you know, and then I tell people sometimes about my experience and they're like, yeah, oh, praise Jesus. I'm so glad you got out of that, Donna. And, you know, just like, you know, so I was really trying to find my. Just again, like, who do I what is who is God again? Like, it's like, you know, and then I knew it's like, OK. So like, and like, I think about, you know, right before.

Donna Rowe (41:24.626)
I had been attending a few churches and I had kind of gotten over but I was kind of like what I didn't I was trying to find my place like I don't really identify with this like such conservative evangelical church and then you know but then I'm like I'm being deceived again am I doing you know it was like going back and you know and then so um then I started to just well I started to

Scott Lapin (41:44.834)
It's hard!

Donna Rowe (41:53.29)
you know, and get books and then I was trying to like change myself into this like religious kind of

Scott Lapin (41:58.508)
And that's what we do because we run out of hope and faith in quote organized religion in the church because you know and social media doesn't help the news doesn't help and everything doesn't help because everybody's laundry is out for everyone to see you know and I mean we just left church back in August and I'm like I have no I will not be stepping in a church because I don't trust the church you know.

Donna Rowe (42:18.792)
Yeah.

Donna Rowe (42:25.59)
Yeah, so yeah, and then another thing that was happening was, yeah, I was having these experiences with the father and I kept saying, you know, well, here it is. I'm just gonna trust you Lord right now because

Scott Lapin (42:28.08)
It's hard.

Donna Rowe (42:44.478)
This is too much for me. It feels like politics, you know, like you listen to this side, they're way out here. Listen to this side, listen to this side, it's like I don't know. All I know is that I trust you right now. And I know that you will lead me in the right direction. He said, he told me, Donna, I want you to love me with all your heart and all your soul and all your strength. And I'm like, what is that? Like, you know, thinking like, what do you mean by that? Because I know that is something that he wants us to do, right?

Scott Lapin (42:47.532)
It absolutely is.

Scott Lapin (43:05.669)
Hmm.

Donna Rowe (43:15.126)
but it was like abandon everything that like right now that you're that you've been struggling with just I want you to set your heart on me and then I realized through that it wasn't like you know it's going to this you know go to Sunday service I'm there I have to note take because I'm kind of ADHD so I'm like I have to note take but I'm trying to you know three steps to being a better Christian or something you know or like three steps you know or whatever it was at the

And I'm trying to remember what they're saying, but it's not really deep for me. It's not really resonating with me. And so at some point I realized that the Father was leading me. He goes, you know, it's just, I'm not your new, just finding me in a Sunday church service.

Scott Lapin (44:00.069)
Hmm.

Donna Rowe (44:02.362)
I think that would be my maybe woman at the well type of thing. He's like, it's like knowing that and following him and trusting him that he's leading me. And I just like the whole church thing was being a. And then we went and we went into covid, right? And I'm not going to. In fact, it's so funny because people are saying, oh, I'm missing my church. I'm like, I'm not missing my church because I'm going deeper with God right now. It's a perfect time to go deeper with them. So.

So through all of that.

Donna Rowe (44:39.006)
You know, getting I met you through Abundant Living Mapping and Melissa McCurry. Is that's her, her baby. The whole leadership and the whole transformational kind of program that she put together. And I met, you know, I was beginning to meet more people who are kind of doing the same kind of thing. I was doing.

Scott Lapin (45:02.256)
Mm-hmm.

Donna Rowe (45:02.902)
Like we were all in this, I feel like we were all in this journey, even though we're all in different places, we're all seeking, we're knowing that like church as it was, is not really what we're seeking. And, you know, he's wanting, wanting to be more relational, more experiential, more, and, but there's this whole process of letting go of what you thought he was.

Scott Lapin (45:14.369)
Right. Yeah.

Scott Lapin (45:33.125)
Mm-hmm.

Donna Rowe (45:33.754)
And even like now I'm exploring like theology even because I've been exposed to some people. I've heard of Deb Alexander and because I from Melissa Kuri she told me you might be interested in some of these people.

Scott Lapin (45:46.608)
you would love him for just from hearing your experience and he's got some free things on YouTube that you can go check out.

Donna Rowe (45:53.042)
Yeah, well I'm in this group in Facebook called, what is it called, Rethinking God with Tacos or something?

Scott Lapin (46:00.06)
the rethinking god with tacos. Yeah. Yeah, rethinking god with tacos. That's a best group, yeah.

Donna Rowe (46:05.798)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean that I mean that they're really causing me to stretch a little bit there too. So I was like, Whoa.

Scott Lapin (46:13.28)
It does, but I love it though. It's so good because it isn't about rebellion or anything. It's like, okay, let's rethink God. Let's rethink, you know, and Doug does that. He takes his, I mean, starts in Genesis and just undoes all the really, really bad theology that's in the Western Church and misinterpretations and...

all of those things that keep us in bondage and keep us striving and they're cult-like and, you know, and it's just like, ugh, the truths and the freedom that you get when you even put down scripture.

Because most of our translations, they're not even translations, they're just interpretations of interpretations of interpretations for thousands of years now. And do what you did and say, okay, God, I want to know you. And let him take you on that journey. You know?

Donna Rowe (47:20.994)
Yeah. So that, yeah, so that has been it's that has been the journey of, and he, um, it's a journey of getting quiet with him. And I realized he's shown me so many things, Melissa, about like, um, who I thought God was. Cause a lot of times, you know, I really had this, I had this idea for myself. He's like a genie.

Scott Lapin (47:37.018)
Mm-hmm.

Scott Lapin (47:41.44)
Oh, and everybody does. If you're good, he'll give you stuff. That's our American theology. If you're good, if you do XYZ, he will keep you out of hell, and then you might get blessed. You know?

Donna Rowe (47:45.082)
You know?

Donna Rowe (47:56.102)
Yeah, so yeah, I've had my own experience with that now with I also have followed Graham Cook for a long time who I love. I feel like he's like a spiritual father for me. And I really I have a group that I actually am involved with right now who, you know, here's the thing I stopped going to church the official like church building. That and I was really

Scott Lapin (48:05.732)
love cram cook love

Scott Lapin (48:19.853)
Yeah.

Donna Rowe (48:22.67)
trying to be true to that because you know, you just, oh, I gotta go, I'm missing church, I've got a good church, you know, whether it be for the social aspect, because you know, hey, everybody wants the social, I do, I know, so. Yeah.

Scott Lapin (48:31.516)
Sure, I do. I miss the social aspect of it. I don't miss all the politics. I don't miss all the false doctrine. I mean, but I miss the fellowship. I miss communing with people on Sunday. And I've got people who quit talking to me because I don't go to church anymore. And I'm like, okay.

Donna Rowe (48:44.61)
Great.

Donna Rowe (48:48.19)
Yeah, yeah, you know, so yeah, they're looking at you like, hmm, like, you know, because even I've had people tell me that like, oh, you're not going to church. Okay. Well, you know what that can lead to? Like, like, you know, when you start going to church, you start, you know, you stop going to church, you start falling off and it was like, Oh, okay. Yeah. And I was, I was just so sure because I was getting that inner calling. I was getting a calling.

Scott Lapin (49:00.716)
You're backslidden. Oh.

Donna Rowe (49:16.674)
to do that, to stay true to that. And when I did, it's like, brilliant, or Graham Cook has a, he started a church called Brilliant Church now. It's an online community. And we actually are, he's more about, because his whole thing, and I think you probably know his story if you followed him, is that he came here to slay what he calls a religious, what do you call it, a religious dragon or something like that, or a religious, you know, spirit or whatever. No, he was prophesied over that way.

Scott Lapin (49:16.718)
Yeah.

Scott Lapin (49:27.04)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Donna Rowe (49:47.114)
But so he's all about relational learning and relational experience with God and so.

Scott Lapin (49:52.848)
Well, your identity as a son or a daughter. Yeah, yeah, not a servant, not a slave, a son or a daughter. I freaking love Graham Cook. I got all of his literature. I mean, for years now I've seen him, I almost said in concert, but I've seen him at conferences and stuff several times. I mean, I love Graham Cook. He's just beautiful.

Donna Rowe (49:56.81)
Right. It all starts there.

Donna Rowe (50:09.335)
Yeah, I think so.

Donna Rowe (50:17.194)
Yeah, he is the meat, gives you meat. It's like, you could take any aspect of some of the things that he's written or his. He has deep revelation. He is a prophet, too, and he's just amazing. He knows that he always talks about the kindness of God, right? And so we're doing a little study right now in the fruits of the spirit, but a totally kind of different study with the fruits of the spirit, because those really are attributes of God, but really

Scott Lapin (50:36.173)
Yes.

Donna Rowe (50:46.702)
experiencing it from the inside. It's like a teaching from the inside to the out rather than like you know performance Christianity is all about like we must do something you know whether it be in the church or whether it be in your outer life or whatever but it's all kind of contained in within the church or you're doing church activities but this is really what he wants to do is really

Scott Lapin (51:01.689)
Oh yeah.

Donna Rowe (51:16.266)
to go out and to be in the world. We are in the world. That's what we're doing. And we are representations, right, of Him, of God. And so if we're not walking in that, if we don't know His kindness, if we don't know His faithfulness, His goodness, and all of that, and then that, it's like, I used to think, I used to really have that, like, oh, I just...

Scott Lapin (51:22.924)
Yeah, we should be. Yeah.

Scott Lapin (51:32.045)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Donna Rowe (51:45.462)
I would fall short too, I'd be like, oh, gosh, I should have been more patient. And then, you know, get mad at myself. I'm a Christian. I need to be more patient or why did I do that in that situation? I could never always fell short, but it's a different experience when you are knowing that you have goodness inside of you and it's coming and you're allowing it to come out versus like trying to be, you know, like you are that.

Scott Lapin (52:03.993)
Mm-hmm.

already in here. Yeah.

trying to make it happen.

Donna Rowe (52:14.326)
You know what I'm saying? Like, trying to do, I'm gonna do this and it'll, you know, it'll make me kinder or I'll, if I do this, I'll.

Scott Lapin (52:21.476)
Yeah, it's fruit of the spirit, not fruit of Donna, you know? That's what we think, you know? I mean, like God's angry God, so we have to do these things and we have to make these things happen and we were never going to succeed any more than the Jews will succeed if there are hundreds of mosaic laws that they can't even keep up with.

Donna Rowe (52:26.457)
Ha! Ugh!

Donna Rowe (52:29.952)
It's rude.

Scott Lapin (52:49.916)
which is why Jesus came. You know, he's like, guys, okay, I've had enough. Let's just be done with all of these shenanigans and I'm gonna finish it all for you because you can't. And here we are. Okay, now let's just hang out. That's the gospel. Ha ha.

Donna Rowe (52:51.492)
Great.

Donna Rowe (53:07.586)
Right. And I think that, you know, I mean, I, I know that I have, but I think that, you know, we are people who like structure, right. But sometimes people feel really comfortable when they're in these like structure, like a rule type of things, it feels safe for them. So you know, I think that's part of that why that group is there that rethinking goblet tacos is because people when they start coming out of kind of like when I came out of that

Scott Lapin (53:34.192)
Yeah.

Donna Rowe (53:37.594)
not kind of I looked at is this really true what I was told like

Scott Lapin (53:41.476)
Oh yeah, you have to really deconstruct. Yeah, you do. You have to take things back down to the foundation, which the foundation is Jesus and the cross, but then most people have to really think about what they believe about that, you know? And who is Jesus? Okay, we need to rethink Jesus in tacos, and God in tacos, and Holy Spirit in tacos.

and then once we get that foundation of who is Jesus, which is why I love I'm I don't know if I would necessarily consider myself but I am very much leaning toward Trinitarianism. I don't know. Do you um uh

Donna Rowe (54:27.23)
I'm just, that is new to me. That is a new thing to me, this new theology. And I like in that group, I have screenshot, I have taken screenshots of all the recommended books because I'm just not, I'm not there yet. I feel like my, but I want, I am very much interested in that, like reading, I think is it Bradley, but yeah, I have that.

Scott Lapin (54:31.152)
Oh!

Scott Lapin (54:38.501)
Yeah.

Scott Lapin (54:49.932)
Bradley Dursack's A More Christlike Way, A More Christlike Word, A More Christlike God. His stuff is way too deep. Get the audiobook and just listen to it. Because trying to read it, I'm like, whoa. But hearing it, I don't know, is different. But he just, I mean, he breaks down the scriptures and he breaks down Jesus. But are you familiar with Baxter Kruger? Okay.

Donna Rowe (54:55.754)
I actually purchased it, but I'm not ready to jump into it yet.

Donna Rowe (55:01.415)
Okay.

Donna Rowe (55:07.939)
Mm-hmm.

Donna Rowe (55:16.23)
Oh yeah, I see this whole thing. This is just all happening recently for me that people are introducing me to like Dr. Kruger.

Scott Lapin (55:19.608)
Yeah, yeah, just go online on YouTube and just sit with, yeah, John Kraut. Yeah, we just took his John Krauters in, I'm an alumni in School of Kingdom and this, the first part of the year, the first semester we did John Krauters. Okay.

Donna Rowe (55:26.702)
Crowder.

Scott Lapin (55:47.74)
I can't even think of the name of his course. Christology, we took his Christology course and he broke down Jesus, you know, for like 10, 12 weeks, however long the course was. And then this half of the year, we are doing introduction to Trinitarianism and Baxter breaking down the Trinity. And what a heresy it is that any of it is separate.

Donna Rowe (55:50.921)
Okay.

Donna Rowe (56:07.829)
Okay.

Scott Lapin (56:17.856)
you know, it's the great lie of the West. You get outside of America and some while Eastern or Western Europe, like we are

Blasphemy thinking that God turned his back on Jesus on the cross. That's just not a thing. That's not the trinity You know just all of these things that a lot of people can't get their mind around but when When you like we talked about way in the beginning of this we put down our expectations And just say okay god, I want to know you And be okay with what he shows us and go. Okay

Donna Rowe (56:35.438)
All right.

Scott Lapin (56:55.928)
That's not what I'm used to. Tell me more. He's not gonna leave us. He's not gonna forsake us. He's not gonna hang us out to dry. He's not gonna... The Holy Spirit's not weird. It's just all this web of stuff that we've created in our church about God and...

Donna Rowe (57:11.21)
Right.

Donna Rowe (57:15.726)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Scott Lapin (57:20.86)
and the things we have to do. And if you take these three steps, you know, and talking, you know, talking about the structure of the church that you mentioned a few minutes ago. And we do, we like the structure of the church. We because we, I think a lot of it's psychological is because we want, we want someone who's, quote, spiritually more mature than we are to set up a system that we can follow.

Donna Rowe (57:49.335)
Right.

Scott Lapin (57:50.088)
you know, and we are a victim of our own society when it comes to that because that is not the gospel. That is not.

go into the world when you have to be serving at your church, you know, three days a week and whether you like it or not, you know, all these rules and regulations that we put on us, you know, I mean, I've had someone say, this was years ago and like I really wanted to just run screaming from the room when I heard her say this, but it was a guest speaker at some women's thing at church.

Scott Lapin (58:31.68)
If you don't get out of bed, take a shower, and put makeup on, and put nice clothes on before you have your quiet time, you are dishonoring God. And I, I wasn't even near where I am today in my theology, and I was like, that is gross. Can we just not put that on people?

Donna Rowe (58:42.699)
Oh, shit.

Scott Lapin (58:59.008)
And don't even get started on the Proverbs 31 woman where we got to do all of these things to make God happy and to be this and to be righteous and da da. Girlfriend just had a side hustle of selling, you know, down at the market. I mean, come on. She was a good steward of what's before her. She didn't do everything every day, all day. Yeah. Oh, so frustrating.

Donna Rowe (58:59.234)
Yeah.

Donna Rowe (59:07.554)
I'm sorry.

Donna Rowe (59:22.978)
I think that a big part is really interesting. It is interesting too, because if you're not mature or you maybe are not confident in yourself and you're still have that fear of manner, they call fear of manner like people please, your people please or that type of thing. It is hard to find your way there. So you must be confident in that what you're hearing.

is the voice of God. Because there are so many, like I'm a person who can see.

Scott Lapin (59:53.766)
Yeah.

Scott Lapin (01:00:01.293)
Yeah.

Donna Rowe (01:00:01.346)
like right now with the political parties and everything, the Republicans and the Democrats. I'm thinking, this can't go on too much longer because I think God is working. There's going to be a system, the system is breaking, just like it's breaking there and it's going onto something new. It can't be so polarized like that for so long.

Scott Lapin (01:00:16.084)
Oh, for sure.

Scott Lapin (01:00:24.612)
Yeah, there's a restructuring happening definitely.

Donna Rowe (01:00:28.03)
Yeah, yeah, in a lot of different things, right? Entertainment, I mean, it's not the only it's like all over the board, right? That's why a lot of people think, oh, this world's gonna shit right sees my language. You know, but I actually have a lot of hope right now. And what's going on. You know, in the mess, sometimes that's, you know, and we it goes through personal transformation even I mean our it looks like just.

Scott Lapin (01:00:35.332)
Yep.

Nope, you're good. We're good.

Scott Lapin (01:00:45.692)
Oh, for sure. Because it can only get better, that's for sure.

Donna Rowe (01:00:57.57)
crappy mess and then you're like, cause everything's getting all stirred up and everything's not, and you're trying to figure things out and then all of a sudden it's like, you kind of start sorting things out and then it's like, there's.

Scott Lapin (01:01:03.458)
Right?

You're like, I thought I was doing good. I guess I'm not. But you know, I think that's the beauty of it because, you know, there's just layers of revelation and layers of growth and

Donna Rowe (01:01:10.528)
Okay.

Scott Lapin (01:01:24.144)
just daily opportunity to see the manifest presence of God in our lives in areas that he wants to change or grow. It's not even change, it's like just growing. I mean, the scriptures are full of agricultural references. And from beginning...

to end of the whole growing process, there are a thousand different steps that need to be taken. I mean, before anything even starts, the farmer has to decide that he's gonna be a farmer.

You know, you're not born a farmer, you got to decide to be a farmer and then you got to get land and then you got to decide, well you got to decide what you want to grow before you can get the land because not everything grows in all the land, you know, and it's just one thing after another. And so for us to think two things here, for us to think that it's a one and done, I said a prayer, now I'm good. That's not going to get it either, you know, and then

for us to also say, you know, I said a prayer, now I gotta do all of these things. Also the wrong mindset, because it's, okay, God, I'm choosing to believe in you, now what? You show me what I need to partner with, you know, instead of us grasping at things, but.

Donna Rowe (01:02:38.375)
Yeah, right.

Donna Rowe (01:02:54.443)
Great.

Scott Lapin (01:02:59.2)
realistically and truly we just have the blind leading the blind in our churches. You know everybody's just doing the best they can and some of them are not doing really good at that. You know.

Donna Rowe (01:03:13.87)
Right. Well, I never understood like in religion, why if the church, you know, you look at, I really would like to study church history a little more, because it is interesting how it went from all the way back from the disciples.

Right. And then the first churches and all of that, and then what happened from there. And, you know, even like these crazy, very kind of like when people were dealing with it, try it. You think it's bad now dealing with heresy? It's nothing like it was in the, when the Inquisition, like the Spanish Inquisition, where they were trying to wipe out heresy and kill you. Yeah.

Scott Lapin (01:03:41.795)
Oh sure.

Scott Lapin (01:03:55.612)
Oh, you know, they just killed you.

Scott Lapin (01:04:01.708)
Literally, physically, yeah. Yeah, church history is no joke. And we do a lot of that in School of Kingdom. We study early church history. Yeah.

Donna Rowe (01:04:08.086)
That would be so interesting. Yeah. I think that's kind of like maybe where I'm going next, but I'm really wanting to stay, you know, so I think it's really important when Holy Spirit is talking to you to pay attention to where he is leading you and to learn. What does he want me, what is he, what am I learning right now? What is he teaching me? And not just be like all, because that's what I would do.

I was doing before is going all over the place. And now I'm realizing that he's wanting to teach me certain things and whatever is in the moment. Like there's always some kind of theme or some kind of thing where I'm being taken. And so if I, it's important to listen up and get what you're getting, what I'm getting right now, you know, bread, you know.

Scott Lapin (01:04:54.048)
Yeah, because there will be a theme in it. I mean, just like, just like this after the well, there was, I've only been really on this for

Scott Lapin (01:05:07.656)
I guess since COVID, four years, because there was something one day that just struck me in her story. I just started researching and doing cons, like comparing her story to other people's story in the Bible. How did Jesus talk to her versus how he talked to other people? Just this whole web. Out of that created, it has created my message.

you know, and that's, I think, could be what's happening to you going down the road of church history because we have

We've gotten astray because we've gotten away from the church history. We've gotten away from the early church fathers. We don't even you know, people will recite the Nicene Creed. But do they really understand what the Nicene Creed is? Do they really read it? Do they understand what happened to the people who signed it? Do they understand, you know, what happened in like the the.

the gathering of the Constantinopolitan creed and which in the second Nicene, you know, and a couple of those. And those were written by the people who hung out with the disciples. How can they be wrong? You know, and, ugh.

Donna Rowe (01:06:20.91)
Yeah. It's kind of like a part of me wants to know that because I mean, it's part of like who I am, like just want my mind wanting to know that. But to have relationship with them, I can have a very simple, I guess we do call theology, which is Jesus. So

Scott Lapin (01:06:41.36)
Mm-hmm.

Donna Rowe (01:06:45.362)
He has placed in me every I'm learning more about that he has placed everything in me I didn't understand what that meant before and Like I said, I'm just trying to be in the moment of like what is he teaching there now and right now it's about Really? having a profound relationship with him and that how much he loves me and also, it is

having this sort of case of Rasar attitude recently that that's all that every time I come back to him it's all about being safe in him. It's all about.

What I mean by safe is that I feel safe to learn in him and know that I am going either the right direction or however he wants to use me for the day or if he wants me to speak to someone or if he wants me to be on your podcast or whatever but it's like

for the first time in my life, really going anchored in him. And I don't know everything about him. I do not, but I do know that that's where it's at. Pardon me.

Scott Lapin (01:07:55.927)
Mmm.

Scott Lapin (01:08:07.556)
But you know Him. You're learning Him. And I think that's, because we need to land the plane a little bit here, but I think that would be a beautiful takeaway is just understanding to just, I love what you said in the beginning, like God, I wanna know you. Are you real? I wanna know you. And then you've just,

Donna Rowe (01:08:15.565)
Yeah.

Scott Lapin (01:08:34.952)
surrendered to that quest. And then here you are sitting on a podcast talking about the peace and joy and even fulfillment that you have just sitting as his daughter who has questions of her father. And that's beautiful. That is a beautiful place. You're not afraid of God.

Donna Rowe (01:08:57.133)
Yes.

Scott Lapin (01:09:04.432)
you're not trying to earn things from God, you're just hanging out as a daughter wants to do with their dad.

Donna Rowe (01:09:14.858)
right. Yeah, it's a it's a he really wants to have her he kept saying every time like I'm doing I'm going to be walking into my coaching business and he's saying Donna do it in ease. I want you to do it in these and so he's teaching me all about that. Sometimes you need people think you're well what ease looks like but really what he's saying is in your mind.

Scott Lapin (01:09:36.347)
Mm-hmm.

Donna Rowe (01:09:36.818)
with me like I don't try to make things happen before the time the timing is like trust you know and just this morning he was like I was asking him some things about you know just people and groups I'm involved with and things like that and it's really again coming back to feeling like who do I feel safe with you father with you because you know me best

Scott Lapin (01:09:43.354)
Yeah.

Donna Rowe (01:10:03.198)
You know, you know, it's in my heart and I trust that because he's really bringing out a lot of like writing right now with me Like writing and wanting to like that's why I showed up. You're actually when you said you told me about your podcast I'm like, oh He wants me to Write more and speak more right now

Scott Lapin (01:10:11.312)
Okay.

Scott Lapin (01:10:22.073)
Nice.

Donna Rowe (01:10:22.362)
And I'm not sure, you know, like I'm doing some journaling now, more journaling, and I'm trying to take opportunities with people where they're either going to, I'm going to show up on a podcast or I'm going to, uh, whatever some, I got interviewed, you know, the other day by someone else too. And, uh, so I'm just trying to have more opportunities like that to, uh, show up and talk about my experience. And, um, you know, when you. Yeah, it's already happening. So, um,

Scott Lapin (01:10:45.212)
Well, he'll create those. He'll create those for you. Yeah.

Donna Rowe (01:10:52.722)
You know, I just, I really do love this kind of, uh, because I've had so many different seasons of feeling like out of sort or struggle or, you know, he was, he was really birthing something in me. And I feel like this spring, like this time right now, he's like, really, it's really getting like it's birth. It's, it's, it's happening. And I feel really great. I feel really grateful. That's what I, the biggest thing is I feel very grateful, very grateful.

Scott Lapin (01:11:11.584)
Yeah. And that's so good. I mean, cause yeah.

Well, there's such peace in it because there's that scripture what the if you don't walk in rest, you won't inherit the kingdom, something. There's that scripture that talks about the rest. And. I think when we're not operating in rest and we're not in that rest, we miss the kingdom.

You know, and I think that's what the whole thing is talking about is not inheriting. I don't think you're going to lose your salvation or anything like that. I don't think that's what it's talking about, but we miss. The kingdom, I mean, like, look at the woman at the well, had she simply walked up to the well and he said, give me a drink. If she would have just done that.

not said anything because she's a woman, he's a man, because she's a Samaritan, he's a Jew, right? That was strike two right there. You know? So had she simply just gave him a drink and then turned around and left?

Donna Rowe (01:12:13.222)
Yeah, which was I knew earlier.

Mm-hmm.

Scott Lapin (01:12:25.388)
scripture would be different. I think a good portion of the Bible would be different because of, I mean, like a whole entire town got saved in two days because she decided to go, okay, why are you really here? You know, and if you're really a prophet, tell me where do we worship here? People say worship, you know, she had that conversation. She had that.

I think self-confidence and that rest within her that just said, okay, you know what? I'm going to be in this moment regardless and let's see what happens. And when we do that, when we choose the peace and we choose not to strive, we choose not to work, we choose not to...

be afraid of man or fear of failure or all the things, when we choose to trust and sit in that rest, possibilities are endless.

Donna Rowe (01:13:14.254)
Thank you.

Donna Rowe (01:13:25.764)
Yes, I would say so.

Scott Lapin (01:13:26.36)
Now when we find ourselves having a podcast and being on a podcast, you know, and I'm like, I didn't think of this two years ago, you know?

Donna Rowe (01:13:32.418)
Yeah.

I know and I think it's wonderful that your whole podcast has formed around the woman at the well and I really didn't have an idea of that until you've been speaking about it during this time with you and I wanted to ask you a question because it came up at the very end part and I know that we're winding things up.

But I wanted to, I hope it's okay that I can ask you a question, um, because since you are interviewing a lot of, um, people or women, how is it, is it just women or men? Okay. Women and men. So when you, is there any kind of common thread that you're finding that kind of links everybody that you have interviewed? Is there any kind of like.

Scott Lapin (01:14:02.731)
Mm-hmm. I got men. I've had a bunch of men too, yeah.

Scott Lapin (01:14:15.48)
really good question.

Donna Rowe (01:14:17.138)
you know i'm curious because like people are telling their stories about and their experiences with god and um so i'm just wondering is there any link kind of thread that kind of

Scott Lapin (01:14:30.764)
Yeah, every single person that I have interviewed somewhere along the way and usually more than once, they've simply talked about how they just quit striving. And that's the thing, they're just like, I just, I gave up. I gave up trying to be what the church wanted me to be.

I gave up trying to live up to the rules. I gave up trying to meet the expectations of other people. Like literally, like everyone says that across the board, whether it was their family or their church leadership because they were on staff somewhere. And I mean, I'm my personal experience. I mean, I couldn't, nothing I did was right. I'm like, screw you guys, I'm out then. I'm tired of being your punching bag, right?

Donna Rowe (01:15:23.767)
Ha!

Scott Lapin (01:15:24.608)
So, and it wouldn't be on that, but that was the main thing. I'm like, okay, what is it today? What am I in trouble for this Sunday? You know? So just stepping back and going, okay, I am passionately in love with Jesus, but I can't live up to the expectations of the church.

Donna Rowe (01:15:34.262)
Yeah

Scott Lapin (01:15:50.016)
and jump through all of these hoops and I'm exhausted.

Donna Rowe (01:15:53.463)
Yeah.

Scott Lapin (01:15:55.204)
God, what's gonna happen? And so I think that would be the theme is, yeah. Yeah, because I don't know, I mean, I think out of, gosh, we're in the second season and I've got like 50 something episodes, 60 episodes, and like only.

Donna Rowe (01:16:01.93)
That's cool. Freedom.

Scott Lapin (01:16:21.144)
Maybe a half dozen people are still in a church community. Most everybody has walked away, but they're so passionately in love with Jesus. And they love kingdom and they want other people to walk in that freedom and walk in that identity and walk in all the things freely that the church says you have to earn.

Donna Rowe (01:16:31.222)
That's cool.

Donna Rowe (01:16:37.733)
Yeah.

Donna Rowe (01:16:45.91)
Right? Nonsense.

Scott Lapin (01:16:46.828)
You know, so yeah, that's a great question. But yeah, that would be the theme is people just that surrender of, you know what? I am done trying to earn the approval. This is exhausting.

Donna Rowe (01:16:51.106)
That's cool.

Donna Rowe (01:16:58.022)
Yeah. And I think it's healthy. I think it's healthy to be able to ask questions. And to because, come on, it's kind of invalidating as it's like not being able to think for ourselves or something, you know, it's

Scott Lapin (01:17:07.789)
Oh yeah.

Scott Lapin (01:17:12.508)
We have not because we ask not. Jesus said that. I mean, like, come on. Anything you ask, my father will give you. And yet, we don't.

Donna Rowe (01:17:20.362)
Or just like, you know, some of, didn't you ever have questions that you just feel like you couldn't answer? Like when you're in the traditional church, really like, oh, well, I just think this way. I don't ever ask about that. You know, I don't.

Scott Lapin (01:17:31.332)
Oh, and that's the thing I've had. It's like, oh, I never thought to ask, you know? Cause it's just, this is what we're done. This is what we're robots, you know? My people are, I didn't grow up with church, so I can't say my mom and dad did this, but it was like the people around me when I did get saved, this is what they did. So this is what I'm gonna do. Oh, I guess.

This doesn't feel right, but they're doing it and they've been a Christian longer than me. I guess I should be doing that, you know? And it's all that conformity, that blind, like I said earlier, the blind leading the blind. It's like, I don't know why we do it, but this is what we're gonna do.

Donna Rowe (01:18:03.404)
Yeah.

Donna Rowe (01:18:07.07)
Well, I had this one experience, I'll quickly tell you, I had this one experience with this lady who I'm sure she met well, but it was like a, what do you call it? Because I was coming out of the cold, I did coaching, I did counseling first and then I worked with this woman who, what do you call it when you let go of like, she worked with like spirits or letting go of demonic, yeah, okay, that's what it was, yeah, like a deliverance or a thing, there was somebody working.

Scott Lapin (01:18:29.984)
Oh, deliverance? Deliverance, yes. Cool, charismatic word there, the deliverance.

Donna Rowe (01:18:38.67)
And, but anyway, she was having me go along this whole list of like renouncing all these different things, right? And then we get, we get down to sort of the middle of whatever we were, and she's saying, you know, renounce acupuncture, renouncing, thinking. Then all of a sudden this kind of light bulb went off and I go, um, I just want you to know I'm not going to renounce anything I don't feel like.

Scott Lapin (01:18:44.388)
Yeah, yeah, been there, sorry.

Scott Lapin (01:18:57.18)
Oh, God, yes. The list, they.

Donna Rowe (01:19:08.906)
I mean, agreeing with not renouncing because it was like kind of like, you know, how sometimes you're just like, oh, I gotta renounce this, I gotta renounce that. You're just kind of mindlessly, you're kind of mindlessly agreeing to like what? I don't need to renounce that. I'm stupid.

Scott Lapin (01:19:10.949)
right?

Scott Lapin (01:19:20.228)
Yeah, I mean, I had somebody. I mean, there's everything. I love frogs. I used to collect frogs. I no longer have a frog collection of things because spiritual leaders that I was under, you know, frogs represent this. And if you collect frogs, they represent sexual perversion and... It's a frog! How, I mean...

When's the last time you had soft frogs even having sex? It's not like cows in a field. What? I mean like the stuff, you know? But yeah, I mean, the training that I've had, I led people through prayers like that. We had the list, you know, we're gonna renounce this and I get playing with Ouija boards and you know, and I'm like, okay, yeah, I knew that. You know, we're gonna, okay, let's close the door of that because I don't want any bad juju or whatever.

Donna Rowe (01:20:06.966)
Yeah, you're right.

Scott Lapin (01:20:15.684)
But even now I'm just like, meh, I'm not gonna play it. But I don't have to go around announcing anything because like, if I'm hidden in Christ, what actually has access to me? You know, so.

Donna Rowe (01:20:19.022)
Right?

Donna Rowe (01:20:28.682)
Right. I think, yeah, sometimes it might mean well, because like, you know, people who are

like maybe don't have a good foundation or are I could see I mean things happening to me or putting myself in dangerous situations because I was

Scott Lapin (01:20:40.738)
sure.

Scott Lapin (01:20:47.505)
I'm just naive or just whatever. But telling me I can't have frogs in my house because they're they what you know and like I mean stupid shit people say in the name of religion is just it's all ridiculous with the deliverance things and started down that road.

Donna Rowe (01:20:49.429)
Yes.

Donna Rowe (01:21:05.682)
Right? I know that it is, it is, I, well, I could tell you so many experiences that way, but it really, I mean, why fill the hour with this, with that type of stuff, but it is, it is interesting what we just kind of assume or we've been told, and then we, we can never question. I think that should be part of the thing. I think that younger people should be able to question the clergy or ask questions like, hey,

Scott Lapin (01:21:22.309)
Mm-hmm.

Donna Rowe (01:21:34.934)
Because when you're young, you have so many ideas about things and you want to know certain things. And I'm like, I am a robot. I will believe. I will do. Therefore, I will be saved. Then I will have my family. And I will do the same thing with them. It's like, OK. If we have such a creative god of the universe, so big, why would he just go, this is?

Scott Lapin (01:21:41.624)
Yeah. We do because I said so. Yeah.

Scott Lapin (01:21:56.996)
But...

Scott Lapin (01:22:04.632)
Yeah, one size fits all. Yeah.

Donna Rowe (01:22:04.918)
I don't know, it's just the idea that we think we know him too is absurd because we only know what we're open to knowing or that we're in. It's like, how can we even?

Scott Lapin (01:22:19.384)
Yeah. Well, I mean, it's the adage, you know, we're just afraid of the unknown. You know, we are against what we don't know. We're against what we don't understand. We're against what we can't control. And, you know, so the quickest way to keep that is, you know, tell people they're going to hell if they don't believe like you. And then it's just downhill from there. Yeah.

Donna Rowe (01:22:44.482)
Right.

right? And that was one of the things that was one of the things I was afraid of after I got that I was involved with a call. I didn't want to tell anyone that I was involved. I believe me. That's why I said who's listening to this? Because it's like, I but we're like going with that. Oh, I don't know. Just lost my train of thought.

Scott Lapin (01:22:48.632)
You're different than me. I'm going to kill you.

Scott Lapin (01:23:01.828)
Which you know, people, it's all a cult. All of it's a cult.

Scott Lapin (01:23:13.816)
I just, I was just, I said I had mentioned killing things that are different or we don't understand and the control we don't, we control what we don't know.

Donna Rowe (01:23:22.066)
Yeah, just along the lines of like, again, when I, you know, left that whatever cult or whatever, and then I was listening to all these different things on YouTube, I was getting so confused. Don't confuse yourself. I would tell anyone that please don't confuse yourself if you are really searching for God. Get involved with people who, you know, just...

Scott Lapin (01:23:39.696)
Yeah.

Donna Rowe (01:23:49.974)
I mean, you need to listen to first of all, where you're at, where you're at, what is he calling you to do right now? What is he wanting you to learn more about him? You know, what is he, you know, is that in conflict with like what you're involved with right now? It's OK to seek another church.

Scott Lapin (01:24:10.676)
a second opinion.

Donna Rowe (01:24:12.03)
When you begin to listen, I find it's really interesting, Melissa, and this is just a topic for another time, but how many people don't have experiences with God? That they don't know how to listen for his voice or that there's multiple ways that Father can talk to us even. Yeah, and people I know even in some of the groups I'm involved with, they're like, well, I haven't had experience with him or I don't.

Scott Lapin (01:24:29.284)
It's not taught in the church.

Donna Rowe (01:24:39.446)
I haven't had a talk with him or a conversation with him. And it's like, how do you, I have had that kind of experience. So how do you teach people about that? That's an interesting part right there. And then even like, how do you then know? Because then some people are like, well, they think that he's gonna show up because to their human brain, how they perceived him, like a conversation like you and I are having right now. Maybe he...

Scott Lapin (01:24:54.357)
Yeah.

Donna Rowe (01:25:09.45)
you know, there's different ways he's going to speak to everyone or show himself to everyone.

Scott Lapin (01:25:14.821)
Yeah, and again, it just goes back to the church miss.

representing and mishandling Holy Spirit. The prophetic has been done wrong. Prophetic for years has been decades and decades has been used to control and manipulate people. The prophet comes into town and tells you all these things and if you give him money, he'll give you words. And people have not seen a healthy representation of the true gospel

that comes with that. It goes again to poor leadership of the church. But again, it's just humans doing the best that they can with what they've done. And it's just got the further way we get from the cross, the more perverted it has gotten, the cross and the message.

Donna Rowe (01:26:06.103)
Right.

Scott Lapin (01:26:15.7)
you know, and just all the things and I could totally go down that rabbit trail about, you know, just bizarre beliefs, the Arianism and things like that, that are common beliefs in the American church. The complete blasphemous things that we believe and we're afraid.

to, like you mentioned Brad Jurczak book, the more Christ-like, I think it was the one the more Christ-like word, where the one where he breaks down. Yeah. And somebody on Facebook.

Donna Rowe (01:26:49.45)
Yeah, a more Christlike word.

Scott Lapin (01:26:55.784)
made a post about something relevant and I commented, you know, and talked about misrepresented, misinterpreted scriptures and I said this book, Bradley, Bradley Dierzak has this book, More Christlike Way, it would answer a lot of questions, blah blah. This guy wrote back.

totally religious response and he's like, Bradley Jerzak's name does not appear anywhere in scripture. I will stick with Paul, thank you. And I was like, oh my God.

Donna Rowe (01:27:31.414)
Yeah, that was the other thing, because as I started doing some more study in the Bible and things, I was looking up these theologians. I'm thinking, why are these theologians so old? I was thinking, those people, yes, they're valid, but I'm thinking like...

Scott Lapin (01:27:47.658)
Right?

Scott Lapin (01:27:53.048)
Right, but then the new people were all heretics and things like that, you know, like Crowder, oh my God, he's like number one heretic on the list and stuff like that, but it's because he's trying to get back to the original fathers, you know, Athanasius and Augustine and...

These you know back to the nicene creed and those people whose names I can't pronounce that were part of making that The creed the original patristic fathers and what they said about jesus in the trinity You know and we don't even believe any of that anymore if we have a theology that says a father Can require the death of his son? That makes him no different than molec or any other

God of Bible times or even today they still do child sacrifices around the world today But God is not like that But we believe he is because misrepresented scripture misinterpreted scripture Do you know it's just nuts? But that's a that's a podcast for another day so

Donna Rowe (01:29:02.545)
Right.

Donna Rowe (01:29:05.858)
Right? That I know that the theologians, it's like, why wouldn't you have new and upcoming theologians? You wouldn't just stay in the past with all these like theologians. I mean, I'm not saying that. Yeah, but that's what I'm learning is that we don't because if you look in your if you look in it in a online Bible, like whether using a blue letter Bible or using the Holy Bible online when you do an inner, what do they call it?

Scott Lapin (01:29:15.18)
And they're out there, though.

Scott Lapin (01:29:23.515)
Uh huh.

Alright.

Scott Lapin (01:29:31.104)
Interlinear. Yeah.

Donna Rowe (01:29:32.002)
you know, linear concordance or whatever search, then they'll give you all these like, and then you'll, you'll be given like, bold, because you're if you're looking, looking in a verse particular, then if you want to look and see, yeah, I'm like, who are these? Anyway, but so when you're starting to put all if you have any kind of mind, you're starting to put all that together for yourself, you're like, it makes sense to

Scott Lapin (01:29:42.116)
Yeah, like, Matthew Henry and... Yeah.

Scott Lapin (01:29:59.543)
Yeah.

Donna Rowe (01:29:59.626)
that the church would transform, because I think that the Father is all about growth and having us transform. I'm not saying that his truths would transform. I'm talking about that we would through his truths. It's like not, you know.

Scott Lapin (01:30:11.301)
Right.

Yeah, but we haven't. We've gotten worse, I think. Yeah.

Donna Rowe (01:30:18.294)
But that's what I'm saying. We should be having, I didn't understand. It didn't make sense to me why that wasn't happening in the church. And I'm sure that's what was part of my dissatisfaction. And also when I started really searching for him really and wanting to have that more of experience with him rather than just a church experience.

Scott Lapin (01:30:37.996)
Yeah, and that's a lot of what you're talking about. The thread through it is that jumping through the hoops and doing all these things, but also hearing the messages that didn't resonate with their heart. You know, people say you hear things about God, you're like, that just doesn't sit right. That doesn't sit right that God would kill his own son so that I would love him.

Donna Rowe (01:30:52.238)
Mm-hmm.

Scott Lapin (01:31:08.18)
I'm why that would be out of fear because I'm like, okay, I think I'll love you because then you might spite me too, you know

Donna Rowe (01:31:17.478)
I know. And those things go deep, you know, they even go beyond like, you know, just like you and I are experiencing go from there, all the beliefs passed down, not even in our own family of origin, but the whole world, like all those, all those old beliefs that somehow if we act out of alignment with what we think God wants for us, then we're going to be punished, right?

Scott Lapin (01:31:39.004)
Oh yeah, angry God, angry God theology. So, well my friend, yeah, I know we can, I think we could sit here all afternoon. So, is there in like two minutes or less, what would be a good nugget that you would like to leave with people?

Donna Rowe (01:31:44.962)
Well, thank you for having me on here today.

Donna Rowe (01:31:51.106)
Let's go.

Donna Rowe (01:31:56.623)
Mm-hmm. Okay.

Scott Lapin (01:32:07.28)
Cause we've said a lot of good stuff today.

Donna Rowe (01:32:09.572)
um yeah that's a hard one but i think just because i what i really don't like um that led me to so much confusion in my journey of walking with god and wanting to be following god right and all this kind of stuff

is there is no fear with God. There is no when you are trying to make decisions that you're listening to a lot. Don't listen to a lot of different people. God will help you sort it out. It just becomes more confusing when you're trying to listen to it. Oh, does this person have the truth? Does this person have the truth? Does this person have the truth? It's too confusing. You know, it's like trying to... so...

Scott Lapin (01:32:57.008)
True story, yeah.

Yeah.

Donna Rowe (01:33:03.77)
I would say please, you know, if you know you love Jesus, you know you love God, the Holy Spirit, He will guide you into the next step of your journey. You know, whether that's in a church, not in a church. This theology, not that theology. You know? And quit listening.

Scott Lapin (01:33:20.194)
Yeah.

Scott Lapin (01:33:24.016)
Yeah.

Donna Rowe (01:33:28.618)
to all these people that you know are not resonating with you or trying to pick because that was the worst thing for me i think on my journey was listening to people who are very harsh and religious and very induced you can tell what will happen is that you get induced with fear confusion and what is that from it's not from god okay it is not from god so just

Scott Lapin (01:33:41.594)
Yeah.

Scott Lapin (01:33:47.164)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Scott Lapin (01:33:53.093)
Right.

Donna Rowe (01:33:57.022)
Listen to learn for, I mean listen to, I'm backwards, I'm having it when you call it moment. Learn to listen for the spirit of what the person is saying. Is it resonating you? Is that something that Jesus would say? You know, is it inducing a fear like, oh, I'm gonna be wrong, you know, I'm gonna be wrong or I'm gonna be, you know, that's not of God. So I think that would be the main thing is that discerning for yourself.

Scott Lapin (01:34:22.588)
That's good.

Donna Rowe (01:34:25.758)
Is that of God or not of God, you know, because of what it's producing in me right now. Is it producing a spirit of fear? A spirit of control or I don't know, whatever. Paranoid? Yeah, I'm going to go to hell if I, you know, if I go veer off of this path.

Scott Lapin (01:34:35.748)
And that's true. Yeah. Fear, which formats. Yeah.

Scott Lapin (01:34:45.752)
Yeah, that's good. And I would add to that.

Donna Rowe (01:34:46.198)
That was my.

Scott Lapin (01:34:51.496)
asking for community to help navigate.

Donna Rowe (01:34:54.262)
Oh yes, that is such a big part of it. Yes, that is so healing when you're able to explore with a community that you can trust and explore those things. It's safe to explore things like that, right?

Scott Lapin (01:35:07.544)
Yeah. All right, my friends, we have landed this plane. Thank you, Donna, for being here. And yeah, until we meet next time, I appreciate everybody listening. If this is your first time, I hope you enjoyed it. If this is not your first time, welcome back. And I appreciate your patronage. So be blessed.

Donna Rowe (01:35:18.539)
My pleasure.

ATW - Time with Donna Rowe

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